Balance: The first stage is balanced towards blue, the second and third towards red. You did pretty good on balance. Design: The design of this map leaves the player wanting more. The first stage in particular should have less random huts, and should draw it together a bit better, as there is a huge open space. The first stage also lacks good sentry spots before the first point. The second (and third even) stage seems a bit too cramped, leaving tons of blind corners and making it hard to keep up a sentry. Fun: The map is somewhat fun, but in the second and third stage it becomes frustrating (for both teams.) Gameplay: There are a number of gameplay problems (including the engie trouble I have.) The main problem I have is the map gets me a little confused from time to time (turning the wrong direction when coming out of spawn is a huge problem.) Looks: This map follows the standard TF2 theme (as most maps do) which makes it quite bland. Another thing, the end of the third stage is very anti-climatic, as it "explodes" with no effects (besides killing everyone who is close to the cart.) Teamplay: This map makes both teams work hard together. Good work on teamplay. Overall: pl_cave definitely needs more work, especially in the looks and overall design. Team play and balance both seem to be great from what I have seen, but stages two and three seem to be harder to finish as blue.

y i laggin?

Pros: Being a map since the es_ times, I feel this map has gone a long way. I haven't played between plcavestage1 and b6, but wow, the changes are great. Stage one no longer feels so claustrophobic due to its being set outside now. Stages two and three look pretty nice as well. The ending explosion is a bit small for one, but it is still quite nice for one to be even made at all.

Cons: Where this map fell in the es_ stage still remains to this day; s1c2 is incredibly hard to take. Engineers and demomen have a great time, as sentries have a great view of the track, and stickies cover the hole between the ground-textured area and the red base textured area. In the time I've seen this played on a server, I've hardly seen the game go past stage one. Stage two... well, what's with the capture point straight at the start? It's quite easy to take and just seems to be free points for the offensive. Stage three is a lot better of course, but the ending area feels like spam heaven. Also, the long tunnel... it looks like it could be a major spamfest too.

Improvements: As you have mentioned, you need to make s1c2 easier to capture. I have no idea why since the es_ times you haven't done much to fix it, but once you have done so, this map should be a lot more enjoyable for the offense. Stage two and three need much less attention, although as mentioned you need to make some areas much less of a spamfest.

Notes: It's been some time since this map had its es_ prefix, and this map still is great fun.

Pros: This map is extremely fun, and it really does encompas the meaning of teamwork at times. It looks brilliant, and it gives a multitude of both open and closed spaces along the way for both teams to battle through.

Stage 1 is action packed and fast paced, where both teams have to watch out for each other due to the many ways to get around, and a mad dash on the final point.

Stage 2 gives off a different feel, a lot more open, less claustaphobic. It contrasts nicely to be open after the closed in spaces of Stage 1.

In Stage 3, I simply love that the cart can either go one way or another. That had the whole server screaming with enthusiasm once it went the opposite way the second time round. It leaves both teams guessing, strategies having to be reformed in an instant.

Cons: Stage 1, unfortunatly, is way to hard to Blu at the end. It is sometimes literally impossible on my full 24 man server for Blu to win, no matter what they try. Engineers can set up so quickly once their stuff has been destroyed, and there are so many blindspots for Blu, due to that archway limiting their view. On the otherhand, due to the Red's spawn position, there is a large chance of spawn rape, especially since Blu can get behind the main red force at the start of the map due to that second exit from their spawn area, and head to Red spawn instead of the main action.

I have very little complaints about Stage 2. However it does seem that the first cap point is very easy for Blu to capture, and most of that opening warehouse is unused by any class. They all stack along the catwalk or right infront of the main door.

The one big issue the server has found with Stage 3 is the Red spawn-into-walkway, which is impossible for Blu to walk up onto. Again, on a full 24 man server, Blu simply cannot get past. Engineers are safe, and sometimes it ends up that the entire Red team is just firing from that catwalk, not even coming down to where Blu has to push the cart.

Improvements: As you might have guessed, make Stage 1 part 2 easier to cap. Obviously dont make it a breeze through, but that last bit is nearly impossible. Also, perhaps only unlock that second exit for Blu when the first base is capped, to prevent spawn raping, and prevent Blu from coming behind Red? That first bit is always a push over due to Blu being able to get behind Reds defences so easily.

There is little I can see on which you can improve Stage 2, so leave it for now.

For Stage 3, do something similar to Stage 1: Make the begining bit harder for Blu, the ending bit easier. Make that Red catwalk more open at the end, and maybe accessible by Blu team? Also, make an explosion when the bomb reaches it's destination.

Notes: It may look like a lot is wrong with this map, but it is actually a brilliant map to play on. It is well liked on the server, and people always have fun when playing it. I hope to see the next version soon!

Pros: The first stage is great, no doubt about it. Cons: The second and third stage seems like alpha version compared to the first stage: too blend, too open, too empty is the exact right word. There's a feeling of emptiness. Improvements: Open more the blue spawn at third stage, with good snipers in red it's a little hard to get it out. Add more props, things to hide behinds, corners, things to jump unto if you're a scout or in rocket/grenade jump. Add more arrows and indicators. Where are the spawn exits, where is the next capture point, and so on.

Pros: Yay! A Payload version of cave! Beautiful first stage! Great gameplay! Very laid out! Very stylish! The entire map looks fantastic! Cons: Like Chicky has stated, the second and third stage just doesn't have the same tone and atmosphere as the first. The second stage being the worst, as it is wide open. With that said, I find this map to be way too small. Small maps turn me off, but when it looks this good and gameplay is awesome, you really can't complain much. Your payload is in the ground. Just stand by it, and you'll see what I mean. You can't see the wheels. :P Third stage, look out! Cap the first point and look at the door open on the left side if you are looking at it from Red's side of the map. You'll see it sticks out. Just interesting is all. Improvements: If you want stage 3 to be harder for Blu, just make the map longer. There are too many areas for Blu to attack at the moment. Lift the path_track entity to about 44 units above the track. It should work. Stage 2 just needs more...flat out. Longer, Wider, More congested. Way too straight of a path. Of course, find a way to take care of that bulging door in the roof. Notes: We gotta figure out how to work that explosion at the end :P Good map. Loved it as an es, still love it now. Keep up the good work. :)

Fire God